What the FUCK is wrong with you!?

[Nicky McCloud]

Okay, Rumsfield...

What the FUCK is wrong with you, you stupid son of a bitch?

Realigning NS Pascagoula, closing Cannon AFB, closing the 166th Refueling Wing of the ANG, right here in MERIDIAN?

The 166th Refueling Wing of Key Field in Meridian was the FIRST wing to EVER perform plane-to-plane direct refueling...

And they're realigning the damned base. They're taking away the refuelers.

Closing Cannon AFB, the F-16 capitol of New Mexico and losing 20 F-16s.

What the fuck is going through Rummy's head?

Someone slap that stupid son of a bitch.

He's ruining local economies!

[Mad But Happy]

Ah yes... Pyro just told me about this. Pyro is angry. And when Pyro gets angry people die. <3

Yes, this is crap-tastic.

[PyroFox]

HOLY JESUS.

RUMSFIELD, YOU SUCK. Hard.



Okay. He's closing Cannon AFB. Hill AFB (Where I am) is going to lose A.O.R of about 20 F-16's because they arent being realigned here. And why is this retarted?

Because Hill AFB is the goddamn F-16 HQ OF THE WORLD.

THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU, RUMSFIELD?!

YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT IM PISSED OFF!

[ABigFox]

Does anyone know if Charleston AFB has been closed? I know there has been talk of it, but I haven't heard anything.

My take on this is that even though closures and realignments do suck for local economies, it is in some cases better for the budget to close them. For example, do we really need so many domestic fighter jets? I mean face it no country is able to launch fighters or bombers w/o us blowing them up before they even make our coastline. As for commercial Airliners being weapons it is now doubtful since numerous improvements in aircraft and screening make it extrememly difficult to hijack a plane. And yes although some wings who are getting closed pioneered aviation, it still doesn't make sense to keep them open if they are unecessary (sp?) and only wasting money that could be used more effectively elsewhere.

[KnightFox]

Rumsfield has to have a freakin' tumor in his head to be thinking of closing 33 Major bases

[Jesika Starwatcher]

NO! Don't close Ellsworth! It's the only FT assignment that doesn't have black flag days constantly! =/

List of bases:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050513/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/base_closings_list_9

[Ahren]

oh god.. please tell me hill AFB Utah is for sure not being shut down!!!! I have heard yes and no all over the school!! if they fucking take away my older brother from me who is stationed there I will go on a rampage! what they hell are they thinking!!!

[Allah]

What the fuck are they closing the Duluth Navy Reserve for? It's not hurting anything, it's fucking RESERVE. What the fuck will they rely on up here? Camp Ripley?

[Boba Foxx]

Isn't the closing of bases pretty much commonly accepted as political suicide? I mean, they were able to pull off a large number of closings back in the 90's (feels weird to say that), but it wasn't easy at all. It just isn't done so casualy. I can see him possibly getting away with one or two without severe political consequences and media and constituent backlash. But 33!??! Is it really that many? If so, the man's taking a razor to his wrist. He was on thin ice after just the Abu-Gharaib stuff. But this ON TOP of that?

[Cobalt]

That's why they are closing it. It is a Reserve, its small, relatively low cost/movement of personnel, and they can manage without it and do the job at a different place. Ohio is a prime example of this, virtually every one they are closing is a small Reserve or minor base/facility that they don't really need. That's what most on the list are, though a few big ones which are purely cost cutting measures. You got to remember Congress wanted this to happen and the Defense Department had to do the best they could and keep their effectiveness in the present political and world climate on a global scale. Yea it sucks but everyone bitches about government waste in spending and well this is a result of it, cost cutting and making the facilities they have more efficient. Bitch all you want but its your own bitching that is partly to blame for this.

33 out of 218 major bases and several hundred smaller ones. (Can't remember exact numbers.)

[Ganon Firenight]

Cobalt? It is not their fault. They are saying we're putting too much money into Iraq. Not "Please take away our livelihoods and the places we buy lots of our things so that you'll have more money." The government is hearing what they're saying about economy, but not what they want done about it.

[Cobalt]

Iraq is not the real issue here; in fact the increased military activity around the world is helping keep more bases open along with the remove of many bases around the world because of increased activity and need. My home town had a small reserve base and it closed some time ago with not real adverse affects though admittedly this is not the norm. From what I’ve seen everyone is looking at the little dot on the page instead of the whole picture. I’m pro military big time but look at the big picture here. Recruitment is way down, the defense budget has been cut numerous times, and for years people and politicians have been pushing for a smaller military or the complete removal of it (which is totally nuts). The military simply does not have the money or personnel to keep these bases open; it’s undermanned and under funded as is (just look at the Navy). In fact many of the support roles that the military used to do internally have now been contracted out to privet military contractors (mercenaries) because they don’t have the man power to do it themselves. Some of the major supply problems in Iraq, especially early on, have been do to the contractors falling through on their promises but of course the military gets blamed because of it. Congress told the Defense Department to do this closing and realigning and all Rumsfield could do is call up the leaders of the Armed Forces and try to make it as painless and effective as possible, he’s playing with the deck he was dealt. I’m not saying its good, lord knows many families will have to relocate, be separated, and find new jobs but what can be done about it? The military can not afford and does not have the personnel to keep these bases open, it’s been in a gradually decline for sometime now. They have to do something before they go bankrupt and become totally ineffective in today’s military/political climate. If you look at it all the research and development they are doing is to make their fighting forces more effective and cut down on the number of personnel they need to operate efficiently and effectively as well as increasing survival for the crew and machines so they don’t have to replace them so often. I can guarantee you Rummy and the boys don’t like doing this because they know the impact it will have on these communities but they have no choice. They have to close bases and cut costs and if it’s not the one in your town it’s the one in someone else’s and then that family will need to relocate or find a new job. There is no good way to do this but it has to be done one way or the other. There either goanna piss off you or the guy in the next town. You want to stop this? Join the military so they have to stick you in some base somewhere.

[Ganon Firenight]

I -am- looking at the big picture.

Which is teh better?

1) Pulling out of Iraq at last. We ease out of the biggest black hole our money is going into. The national angst dies down. People in other countries stop hating us. Americans stop dying in Iraq.

2) Pulling the plug on hundreds of small reserves that are important to local economies all over the U.S. Small monetary recovery. Livelihoods destroyed. Americans still dying in Iraq. All the government has is more money to send into the black hole of Iraq. National angst flares up even higher than before.

Maybe I should make a poll based around this.

[Cobalt]

Neither is better because your missing the big picture on both topics, two would be better if you would open your mind to more than the anti war argument, but this is off topic so I will say no more about it. If you wish to dicuse it furture PM me.

[Ganon Firenight]

Cobalt, don't tell me what I'm missing. Your "big picture" is biased because you're pro-war, mine is biased because I'm anti-war. I know exactly what my views are and I understand others' views, but I'm just stating logical facts up there. Tons of good things happen if we pull out. Some bad things happen, yes, but not enough to outweigh the good things. If we stay in, things are just gonna keep going further down the shitter.

[Cobalt]

Go study what has happened to the Montanyards in Vietman when we pulled out and simular situations in history and then tell me that again with a strate face, you will not be able to. One more thing before this thread turns to war/political bashing on each side, I'm not pro-war. If you wish to continue this political/war conversation PM me because I will not respond to anything but the closing of military bases in this thread again. Plotics so often revert to flame wars when other get to get invovled and I am not going to get into a flame war.

[Knuckles]

I -am- looking at the big picture.

Which is teh better?

1) Pulling out of Iraq at last. We ease out of the biggest black hole our money is going into. The national angst dies down. People in other countries stop hating us. Americans stop dying in Iraq.

2) Pulling the plug on hundreds of small reserves that are important to local economies all over the U.S. Small monetary recovery. Livelihoods destroyed. Americans still dying in Iraq. All the government has is more money to send into the black hole of Iraq. National angst flares up even higher than before.

Maybe I should make a poll based around this.
-Ahem-

We can't just simply "Pull out of Iraq". We would pay the price dearly. No matter who's running what, we can't just pull out now. It'd be impossible.

You want to know what would happen? Ok, I'll let you know.

For one, we aren't fighting an organized country. The coalition going on is fighting pockets of somewhat organized militant groups all over Asia. It would take years to root all of them out, and we probably won't be able to nuetralize them all.

Also, if we DID pull out. There would definitly be retaliation, we wouldn't be simply invaded either. No, that's why they are TERRORISTS. They use some very cowardly military tactics when on the offensive. Whether it be fueled by religion, hate, or just insanity.

If we pull out now, there will be MORE attacks. The world will still fucking hate us. Pulling out of a war won't change the minds of other countries. They'll most likely still view us as arrogant, pompous, ignorant, and ugly Americans.

Last time I checked, most to all Muslim extremists, militants, and guerillas have declared a holy war against nearly all of the western world.

And I know that the situation will continue to stagnate further. The death toll will still continue to rise. And I'm pretty sure our government was aware of the fact that people are going to die and millions of dollars spent on this war.

So why not sit back on you're ass and thank god you're not enlisted.

[PyroFox]

Want to know what happens if we pull out?

Every other country is too big a pussy or not strong enough to step up and fight terrorism. So it will run rampant, and before long it will spread. If you want that shit thats going on in Iraq in YOUR neighborhood then yeah, take your dumbass out of my country. Go step on a land mine.

Yes, I am not debating the fact that we are suffering losses over there, I know that, and it sucks. You can't fight a war nicely, it doesnt happen. So until some of you wake the fuck up and realize that there is in fact a world outside of your existance, shut up.

And no Im not talking to Ganon. He is actually seeing things from both sides, something I must say is really fucking hard to come by in this board lately. I might not agree with his opinion, but fuck, at least he's not being an idiot about it.

[Jesika Starwatcher]

Pyro's right. There's no use debating whether or not the war in Iraq was a good idea or not because, guess what? It's a moot point. Now we have to figure out how to win it.

But, going back to the original discussion, what are the odds that all of this is going to pass through Congress? Just curious, since I don't remember much of the Clinton administration because, when I was in middle school, I frankly didn't care.

[Cobalt]

Well considering Congress wanted this I think it will, their just looking for final aprovel I belive.

[Ganon Firenight]

Er, I don't think we should just "pull out", but I do believe we're putting way too much effort and money into it and not enough into matters at home. I'm saying it would be best to find a safe way to get out as soon as possible. You can't "fight" terrorism, you can only defend and prepare for it.

Back on topic, it's possible that this will, in fact, go through Congress. As Cobalt said, they're the ones that told Rummy to do it.

[Knuckles]

Er, I don't think we should just "pull out", but I do believe we're putting way too much effort and money into it and not enough into matters at home. I'm saying it would be best to find a safe way to get out as soon as possible. You can't "fight" terrorism, you can only defend and prepare for it.

Back on topic, it's possible that this will, in fact, go through Congress. As Cobalt said, they're the ones that told Rummy to do it.-Cough-

Excuse me?...

We are putting our money home as to say. We are putting it somewhere to DEFEND this country that we love and others hate. We are are taking the necessary courses of action to "defend" ourselves from terrorism.

Did you understand it that time?

Or do you have to go look at the dead soldiers? Smell the burning flesh? We are most definitly putting our money HOME. We're putting our money HOME so our HOME doesn't turn into a third-world heirarchy.

[Boba Foxx]

I seriously doubt that Congress will pass this. They may have "wanted it" initially, back before it got public, but now people are going to be watching. And they may have wanted it as an institution representing hte nation, not a body consisting of individual legislators representing smaller districts/states. Those roll-call votes are public and citizen advocacy groups and special interest groups will be watching and taking notes. 33 major bases and several hundred smaller bases? I don't have the data in front of me, but my guess is that this impacts a decent number of states and congressional districts.

Look at it from a congress member's perspective. Each member who has a base in his or her district will be facing the institutional dilemna: the fact that a member of Congress will represent his or her constituents back home but also will represent the nation as a whole. In a perfect world, what is good for the district/state would also be good for the nation as a whole. Sadly, this isn't always the case, hence the dilemna. Trustees are those who do what they consider to be in the best interests of the country. Delegates are those who do what they consider to be in the best interests of their constituency. Most members of Congress are delegates, because they aren't elected into office by their colleagues. They're elected by their constituents. Yes, having friends on capitol hill and in the white house can be beneficial in a bid for re-election. But it takes an awful lot of help to win if the people actually casting ballots think you're a douche for putting them and many others out of work. There are some members (particularly in a state as evenly divided as Ohio) who will be unwilling to risk the potential political consequences of shutting down bases in their home areas. It's going to hurt. A lot. Those offices are going to get LOTS of angry phone calls, letters, emails, faxes and personal visits. I can see the campaign ads now:

Senator Puffy Wolf voted to shut down 33 military major bases across the country, including x right here in the state of Fortuna. Thousands of soldiers were laid off (yeah, they're reservists. So what? What are you going to do Mr. Congressman, go on TV and say "they're not real troops"? Yeah, that'll go over swell...). Is this what the Judosian party means by "supporting our troops". This November, show Mr. Wolf that it's time for HIS pink slip.

This advertisment paid for by the Commitee to Elect Snifit Firecoy

That's not something any member of Congress wants to deal with. And they obviously have an incentive to convince their colleagues to oppose it as well. A prospective political opponent can still come up and say that the cuts happened "on his watch". Yeah, you can do an ad to respond that that one, but neither time, money, nor energy grow on trees. Members don't want to have to deal with that stuff.

Plus, the democrats might see this as an issue they can rally around. They will come under fire for being fiscally irresponsible, but the dems may see this as a chance to move in on the pro-military voting block. Remote possibility, but look at it this way. If all the dems voted against the cuts, there's probably enough republicans with bases in their districts or states that they could form a majority coalition.

Finally, even if it gets past the House and there are enough votes in the Senate, if the Senate has less than 60 votes, guess what? I'm sure there's some senator who has two major bases and a whole slew of smaller bases in his home state. It's filibuster time. Or he may just put a hold on it, which is more discreet, but not necessarily effective, as holds can be overturned with relative ease.

Any way you slice it, if Congress does vote on this, it will either be a long drawn out battle, or it will be very quick. Either way, if they do end up voting to do this (electorally stupid, but, admittedly, financially correct: deficit's huge), you can expect this to be an election issue in 2006.

[dag yo g]

This is how much I care about Rummy...................................0.0


This is how much I care about bases being closed ..................0.1

[Ahren]

As usual dag you find something to bitch about and something to be negative about. Honestly I find you a lonely little prick who acts the way he does because he probably has no friends and wants attention. there are ALOT of people in this country who have loved ones out there dieing and giving their lives. I know I certainly do. my Uncles Todd and Don, My cousin Joseph and my ESPECIALLY my older brother Pyro. these men give their lives on a daily basis so you can bitch about everything.
my brother does all he can busting his balls on a daily basis to help protect this nation. and I find it personally insulting and disgusting you do not give he nor any military personel the credit they deserve. you OWE them for being able to be as FOUL as you are. even if inderctly he's who you have to thank for your freedom. if people don't like this country guess what. GET OUT!!! no ones forcing you to live here. your here because you want to be. if you hate this government so much then go find another one and let us be. there is a HUGE difference between freedom of speech and wrongful abuse of freedom.
these bases closing I do not think is right. and I am personally against it and wish it would not happen even though I do my best to love and support my government, president, country and military.
I think we all need to remember that we don't know all the facts and need to remember even though I wish it did not happen. that maybe in the end... it may be for our better good.

[Haze]

I'M SITTING AT HOME SCRATCHING MY BALLS SO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE CAN BE FREE.

I FOUGHT IN WW1, WW2, VIETNAM, I FOUGHT IN THE VIETNAMS. HGhghhzhz cough cough

[Ganon Firenight]

How likely is it, really, that Iraq and terrorists would come and turn us into a third-world country if we backed out? e.e

What we are doing in Iraq is not defending. Face it. It has fucking NOTHING to do with defending America.

[Knuckles]

How likely is it, really, that Iraq and terrorists would come and turn us into a third-world country if we backed out? e.e

What we are doing in Iraq is not defending. Face it. It has fucking NOTHING to do with defending America.Like I said.

They declared a fucking Jihad on us. That means the militants kill anyone who is not also a Muslim extremist.

Basically, Europe, North America, and much of South America.

And yes. We are defending ourselves. Hunting down leaders of an organization who are willing to take it to us here. Remember September 11th, 2001? Yeah. Events like that will happen.

Tell me this. How many extremist and militants has Abu Musab al-Zarqawi sent to blow the shit out of convoys, police headquarters, recruitment centers, and barracks? What the fuck makes you think he won't do it here?

Maybe, just maybe. If we catch Zarqawi, do you think that eliminates the threat of more bloodshed on our own soil? Hm? Or do you think that.

Or maybe this should clarify things?


"Allah ordered us in this religion to purify Muslim land of all non-believers… After World War II, the Americans became more aggressive and oppressive, especially in the Muslim world. American history does not distinguish between civilians and military, and not even women and children. They are the ones who used the bombs against Nagasaki. Can these bombs distinguish between infants and military? America does not have a religion that will prevent it from destroying all people" ~ Osama Bin Laden. May 28th

The bases that are being shut down and being made smaller. It is being done because the government doesn't want to raise taxes on the American people to pay for this war.

Then we'd have to blood on our hands wouldn't we?

[Nightflurry]

Eh... some of it is politics. They closed a lot of bases in Democratic senator and congressmens districts. The simple fact being.. ok it's complicated, but this is a VERY dirty trick the GOP seems to be pulling. Closings WILL happen, and some of them.. well some of them have to be accepted and are not political. However.. say you got Debbie Stebanow, a Michigan Democratic senator. She is looking at a rough fight in 06.. now, she just had a base pulled from her. How does this help the GOP? Very simple. Americans have a memory of 7-14 days, they'll forget Rumsfield closed the base, and come 06, her Republican challanger will use the base closing against her as proof of her lack of influence in the senate... same with all the others.

Sorry guys, that's the scoop. It's TOTAL bullshit... but there ya have it. I don't get the GOP anymore, I used to not mind them, but the last few years... the fuck?

Again, sorry for having to bring up the sad truth that it's politics. People tell me I make everything Dem vs Rep... no not really, I wish it wasn't that way. Sadly, the powers that be are making it that way, and all I'm doing is explaning the situation as it is. ><

[Nightflurry]

I'm going to double post, sue me. Knuckles, are you stupid or just plain ignorant? Don't you fucking morons get anything... oiy..

They changed wars and nobody noticed, it's 1984. First, let's examine some fun facts.

Who made Osama, where did he come from, why is he killing us:

Osama is quite simply, an ex-CIA propup used by us to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. A fairly charismatic leader who's no idiot. Also a member of the Wahabbist subsection of Islam.. who quite simply are a LOT like Christian fundies, but that's a different topic. Why is this guy mad at us? Oh it's so simple you'll want to choke yourself.. Saudi Arabia, this whole war, 9-11, oil, all of it can be traced back to US relations with the Saudi Royal Family. Back to Osama.. the US opened military bases in Saudi Arabia some time ago, and that is when he turned on us. See, his religious beliefs don't like the idea of US military units on Islamic Holy Sites. It would be the equlivant of an Islamic nation putting military bases on Christian Holy Sites. So.. he actually made a case to us to get them out. Naturally, we told bin Laden to fuck off, and then he started blowing our stuff up.

What's this all have to do with the Saudi's anyhoo:

Everything. We've propped the Saudi Royal family up.. their citizens HATE them, because they're brutal, extremist dictators that are as bad as, if not worse, than Saddam. Terrorists did exist in Iraq before we invaded, but in miniscule numbers, hell we had more terrorists in the US than in Iraq I'd bet. Saddam fucking hated Osama, and fucking hated Wahabbist's, and fucking hated terrorists. He was a secular dictator, and he didn't want terrorists mucking up his hold on power. On the other hand, Saudi Arabia produced: Osama bin Laden, 15 out of 19 of the 9/11 attackers, Wahabbist Islam, and plenty other headaches. This doesn't matter though, we couldn't invade the Saudi's.. they're too close of friends to the US government and of personally to the Bush's. But we had to invade someone, no? Afghanistan was a good place to start, it really was, and was justified. Sadly, halfway though we sort of gave up and went for Iraq instead. Osama got a free walk out, and we accomplished nothing. (Taliban is reganining some power and opium production is at record levels again.)

So.. why are we in Iraq again? I'm sorry, I must've missed the logical reason for it. Saddam was a bad guy? Well duh, so is Prince Bandar, so is Kim Jong Il. Saddam killed about 250,000-350,000 of his own people in mass executions over about 12 years, not a good thing.. we killed 100,000 in about 18 months in. Iraq's power and water systems still don't work, more people are dyng everyday, they're turning on us, we've renigged on our promises.. I mean.. maybe I'm the stupid sheep.. but I really don't think so. Try using your brain, it might hurt a bit at first, but after awhile you'll start seeing things you wished you never did.

[Ganon Firenight]

... Thank you, Flurry. Not to mention that logically, it's impossible to fight all the terrorists who want to kill us on their own soil. It's impossible to end terrorism, at that, because it's not a country, it's a state of mind, it's a type of warfare. So the only thing you can do is defend against it. You can't fight it.

[Nightflurry]

Yeah, I'm just waiting for the sheep to spit their standard imprinted lines out at me. "You hate America", "You don't support the troops", "Liberal media", "So you think Saddam was a good guy", "9/11 changed everything", and of course "It's all Clinton's fault". :P

[Boba Foxx]

I'll start by saying that I at no time supported the war effort in Iraq, and maintain that it is the biggest mistake in US Foreign Policy history.

That said, pulling out would be a mistake and would have consequences. Now Ganon, you are right in that it is ridiculous to assert Iraqi insurgents have any capacity to successfully invade the United States and render us a "third-world nation". They don't have the numbers or the technology necessary for this. And probably never will.

However, we've made a mess of things, and, as the maker of the mess, I think we have a responsibility to clean it up. If not, it could come back to bite us in the ass later. Flurry documented the situation in Afghanistan very well. However, I would add that the Taliban came to power in that nation as a result of a power vacuum. We used Bin Laden to kick the Soviets out of the region. "Mission accomplished", right? Well, once we were done with Bin Laden and the other anti-Soviet insurgents we supported, we left the picture too. So, without the presence of the two superpowers, the Taliban were able to rise to power without serious complications. And we all know what that eventually led to - ten years later, the WTC collapses.

There is a situation in Iraq now similar to that in Afghanistan a decade ago. Once again, US power (this time, our own troops) was used to oust what was perceived as a hostile government from the region, Saddam, as opposed to the USSR. Saddam, for all his faults, kept his nation under control and orderly. He would defend the sovereignity of his nation from being taken by extremist Islamist groups. He considered them threats to his power. Now, it's our job to defend Iraq's sovereignity. If Saddam and the United States are out of the picture, there will be nothing to prevent extremists from taking over the government and effectively "creating another Afghanistan", a haven for terrorist activities that could produce another attack on the United States. I have little faith in the little Iraqi government that we've set up. I honestly believe that if we left, they wouldn't stand a chance against the insurgency that has risen up. Saddam was bad, of course, but a state like Iraq governed by warlords and extremists would be far, far worse. It won't necessarily come back to get us if we leave, but I'd rather not take that chance.

[Prism Lightblade]

"Allah ordered us in this religion to purify Muslim land of all non-believers… After World War II, the Americans became more aggressive and oppressive, especially in the Muslim world. American history does not distinguish between civilians and military, and not even women and children. They are the ones who used the bombs against Nagasaki. Can these bombs distinguish between infants and military? America does not have a religion that will prevent it from destroying all people" ~ Osama Bin Laden. May 28th


While I do not agree with his actions, I do agree with this statement. The United States has become rather egotistical since World War II, almost to a sickening level. No one country should police the others, regardless of who said (if anyone did) that the United States should. Now, when and if we begin colonizing other planets, new nations will rise eventually and how is the precious United States going to deal with that? I believe it is quite clear and obvious the Muslims do not want us over there--that is one of the main reasons why they keep threatening the United States. Technically it is not our business on what goes on over there. Of course, it does affect the economy witht he oil industry, however there is a such thing as alternative fuels. And Osama is right. The major religion we have here pushes for conversion and control of the people, essentially. This is a personal reason of why I myself do not follow one religion in particular, but several.

[dag yo g]

Like I said.

They declared a fucking Jihad on us. That means the militants kill anyone who is not also a Muslim extremist.

Who's they? "They," wasn't Iraq, you know? It's less Iraq than our good buddies in Saudi-fucking-Arabia. You should realize that lumping all muslims in as "they"...and then saying we are allowed to "stop them" would require us to exterminate them as a race. If you don't like that... don't get mad at me... YOU said it.

Basically, Europe, North America, and much of South America.

And yes. We are defending ourselves. Hunting down leaders of an organization who are willing to take it to us here. Remember September 11th, 2001? Yeah. Events like that will happen.

Tell me this. How many extremist and militants has Abu Musab al-Zarqawi sent to blow the shit out of convoys, police headquarters, recruitment centers, and barracks? What the fuck makes you think he won't do it here?

Maybe, just maybe. If we catch Zarqawi, do you think that eliminates the threat of more bloodshed on our own soil? Hm? Or do you think that.

How many extremists Iraqis were sent to bomb us daily when we HADN'T BOMBED THE SHIT OUT THEIR COUNTRY AND KILLED THEIR FRIENDS AND FAMILY? Try less than one a fucking year (guesstimate). Now it's over 50 attacks A DAY. SO...
Saddam = One a year.
US = 70 a day....
Hmmm... maybe WE'RE THE PROBLEM.

"Allah ordered us in this religion to purify Muslim land of all non-believers… After World War II, the Americans became more aggressive and oppressive, especially in the Muslim world. American history does not distinguish between civilians and military, and not even women and children. They are the ones who used the bombs against Nagasaki. Can these bombs distinguish between infants and military? America does not have a religion that will prevent it from destroying all people" ~ Osama Bin Laden. May 28th

What's your point? Are you trying to support my case or something? All it shows is propaganda. It's kind of like listening to The Broken Recor.... er George Bush, say that Osama Bin Laden hates freedom over and over. He doesn't hate freedom he hates oppression, which is what we specialize at. Look at the American Indians... we oppressed them almost to extinction. Is Osama Bin Laden a good guy? Fuck no, he deserves anything he gets for being the self-rightious little hypocrite that he is. Is he what Bush tells us he is constantly? NO! It's nothing more than Propaganda.

The bases that are being shut down and being made smaller. It is being done because the government doesn't want to raise taxes on the American people to pay for this war.

Then we'd have to blood on our hands wouldn't we?

We "re-elected" him... we DO have blood on our hands.

[China H]

My boyfriend and I were actually talking about this the other day.

In response to the starting post: They're closing the New Hampshire Portsmouth Naval shipyard as well. The economy here relies so much on that shipyard, and now they're just shutting it down. So many people are going to be without jobs. If it goes down, we're in alot of trouble up here. I don't know what those bastards are thinking, but it makes me glad to know at least that I didn't vote for that son-of-a-bush.

As for the Iraq "war" (or was it, "wanton slaughter"... :dotdotdot ) My opinion actually runs along the lines of what Prism was saying. The muslim religion is actually a very passive one. Every major religion turns out extremists... everybody. Just because the Taliban was a group of whack jobs (albeit, intelligent ones) doesn't mean the whole of the Muslim religion is "slaughter in the name of Allah". It's sad just how little we know. We shouldn't be over there. We think we're the "heroes" because we fight for truth, justice and American oil- oops... I mean the "American way." You can't force democracy on people. It's like we're saying "They'll be this way and like it!" (I think everyone should watch Fahrenheit 911. It really gets across what I'm trying to say... Now! Dammit!)

*shakes head* Seriously, though... It makes me ill. We're not freeing people. We're just making a shitload of ememies. We're the oppressors. Not the oppressed. How dare we.

[amtrack88]

A bad move by Cheney that will most likely come back to bite him in the ass later on.

First off, I don't group all my opinions in. So if I dislike one of the president policies, dosn't mean I completely hate the guy. I always supported the war on terror... er, I mean the "war in Iraq". (See the media has even successfully gotten us to believe Iraq is different than the war on terror) But I believe the president and vice president totally underestimated the power and descruction of these terrorist insurgents, and that everybody would immediatly accept the idea. Everybody keeps crying on about this Fahrenheit 911 "documentary"; seen it, much like the rest of Moore's films, it's a propaganda film that's full of crap in my opinion. The ones' in office may not be the greatest, but I support all of this because I believe it's about time someone had the balls to actually attempt to do something about it.

[Princess Wovstah]

The base in Fairmont, WV is going under... My cousin is stationed there... What happens next? None of us know...

I think the troops should finish up quickly as possible to what they're doing over there and come on back. This war has lasted too long and it's really costing our country big time not only in money but in how other countries feel about us.

Just like many pro-war Americans see all Middle-Eastern people as terrorists, others around the world see all of us as heartless beasts.

I personally don't see a point in the war, but I can't complain. I don't have power over this. All I can do is pray for the best.

[Jesika Starwatcher]

Extremists of any religion are bad news.

[Allah]

You're all faggots, I don't want to read all of the pompous bullshit. If you can't use paragraphs, DON'T POST. I DO NOT WANT A HGUGE FUCKING BLOCK OF STUPIDITY. FEED IT TO ME IN SMALL DOSES.